reproductive rights
NeoNote — Abortion is not about women's rights
❝❝Abortion is not about women's rights.NeoNotes are the selected comments that I made on other boards, in email, or in response to articles where I could not respond directly.
Yes, I know most here do not agree. But there are two things you must consider. First, it's not a right unless the other person has it too. Which means that "reproductive rights" just excluded half the population. Now, that doesn't mean I am saying no abortions. I'm just pointing out that abortion is not a right, any more than designer shoes.
Second, not all women think that abortion is a right. You can denounce them, you call call them misguided, but they don't agree that abortion is a right.
Finally, before you complain about judicial decisions, remember that Roe vs. Wade was a judicial decision that circumvented existing law.
And as I told you before, "these people" see it as a matter of preserving human life. The "opening bid" was Roe vs. Wade. I don't agree with them on everything, but let's get the timeline right.
Like it or not, the rights of the fetus are a part of the discussion. As are the rights of the father. Reproductive "rights" can't trump that, but reproductive privilege certainly does.
If this were a matter of rape, you might have a point. But sex is still (mostly) a consensual activity.
Their passions and their beliefs are just as strong as yours are. They aren't going to accept defeat quietly, anymore than you would.
While neither you nor they will admit it, the other side has some truth.
And in case you hadn't noticed, you have damn little power over your health care now. The left isn't blameless and totally virtuous in this matter, and I wish we would stop pretending that they are. Government is government and power over is power over. No matter how noble the motives, no matter how much it's for the common good, it still takes away choice.
Practically every reason that healthcare is messed up is because of government interference. Whether it is special perks and privileges extended to major pharma firms, or the approval period for new drugs and procedures, or Medicare and Medicaid setting prices for procedures and treatment while exploding costs far beyond inflation, or the active suppression of nurse practitioners, or screwing up insurance so badly that people have no idea what they are paying for or if it would be cheaper not to go through their insurance, the list goes on and on.
It doesn't help that every government fix involves more government.
And why do people keep raising the issue of rape when it comes to women's medical care?
Just to point out the obvious, both Republicans and Democrats have turned women's bodies into battlegrounds where there can be no compromise.
*sighs* The original stat for American women was one in five women will be sexually abused in their lifetime. Abused, not necessarily raped. It's also not accurate.
I don't accept your premise of either/or.
Nor do I accept that sex and abortion are tied to rape. Funny, I don't think that most relationships have to be about who has the power.
If you don't think that Democrats exploit women's bodies, then why is it so important to denounce the women who don't agree?
The original study was the 2007 Campus Sexual Assault study conducted by the National Institute of Justice, a division of the Justice Department. Here's what two of the authors had to say:““As two of the researchers who conducted the Campus Sexual Assault Study from which this number was derived, we feel we need to set the record straight. Although we used the best methodology available to us at the time, there are caveats that make it inappropriate to use the 1-in-5 number in the way it’s being used today, as a baseline or the only statistic when discussing our country’s problem with rape and sexual assault on campus.
Second, the 1-in-5 statistic includes victims of both rape and other forms of sexual assault, such as forced kissing or unwanted groping of sexual body parts—acts that can legally constitute sexual battery and are crimes. To limit the statistic to include rape only, meaning unwanted sexual penetration, the prevalence for senior undergraduate women drops to 14.3%, or 1 in 7 (again, limited to the two universities we studied).””
Until someone else mentioned it, I deliberately avoided mentioning rape. I specifically talked about sex, responsibility, and abortion. A casual reading of some of the other responses here (including yours) would seem to excuse a woman's responsibility before the fact because of, you know, rape. Maybe I'm just being extra dense here, but it seems like the only reason rape isintroduced into the discussionmentioned is to specifically excuse women from responsibility.
When someone starts offering two and only two alternatives, that's the cue to look for the fourth, fifth, and sixth choices.
There are conservative women who disagree with you on abortion. Why aren't they a part of the discussion?
Why should your morality and choices govern the actions of another? Isn't that what you say would happen if conservatives "win?"
One other thing. Roe vs. Wade. Decided by eight old, rich white dudes and one rich, old black dude.
“You can't circumvent the topic of rape when discussing abortion.”
Why not? Are all or most women raped? Do all or most abortions happen because of rape? Why is it so very very necessary to make this part of the discussion when rape is not usually the reason for abortion?
Again, I am not saying that abortion should be illegal. I am saying that it is more than just the woman involved. I am not arguing over the definition of life. I am not dragging out charts and pictures to show a fetal heartbeat or how it responds to touch at what point in the pregnancy. I am saying that abortion is not a right when it excludes the man. And at a certain point (which I have no idea what is), the fetus.
If you want men to act responsibly, that means their sex partners should too. That means that yeah, women should think about consequences before sex. That means that if abortion is an option, it should happen before the last trimester and probably before the second. And yes, that means that the man should be involved in the decision. If they aren't, then men are just being encouraged to be irresponsible.
Just like what is happening now.
The default is for the man NOT to be involved. The default is for the man to ignore the consequences. Claim that only the woman can choose, and the man doesn't have to choose.
That's why abortion as it is now is not a right.
I am not denying that rape happens, although I do not think it is nearly as common in America as some claim.
I just think that always discussing rape when talking about abortion doesn't do your argument any good. As it is, based on what you say abortions should be performed if the woman was raped and never for any other reason.
Yes, I am arguing. I am saying that abortion isn't a right if even the discussion doesn't have to include the man. And the man is not usually or even mostly a rapist.
That's it.
Everything else is something that others have tried to hang on me.
*shrugs* Your choice has reduced this to either/or.
Here's the inevitable result. You can imprison them and/or kill them, or they can imprison/kill you. Force rules. Might makes right. Submission must happen. Power over, now and forever.
Is that what you want?
*shrugs*
Like I said, reproductive privilege excludes the man. And if a woman excludes the man from the choice, then he has no reason to be responsible. “He is literally just a donor of genetic material…”
Who said I didn't consider women as human beings?
I'm a guy who believes the aunts and grandmothers theory of history.
I seek the Divine in every lady I meet. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes not. Sometimes it's my fault, sometimes not. I knew my first strong woman from before I was born. She learned it from her grandmother, the strongest woman I've ever known (www.neowaylandDOTcom/files/StrongWoman170330.html).
Why do you assume that because I dissent on some things I would throw you to the Christian patriarchy?
Why are you measuring somebody's strength by something granted by politicos?
Again, I haven't said no abortions. I've just said that if it's only the woman's choice, then it's not a right.
For the last fifty years or so, American men have lost rights when it comes to children. Somehow the discussion about abortion always includes vague allegations of rape and domestic violence as if most men did terrible things to women.
Most men don't do these things. We're not guilty, we shouldn't be blamed for what we didn't do and are not likely to do. The presumption of guilt should not shape relationships and sex.
Even now, you are escalating. The discussion started about abortion. Then domestic violence got added. Then rape. And now you added murder.
Everybody shares a right. Privileges exclude people. Only some get privileges. Privileges are not rights, and rights are not privileges.
Now I am not talking about rape, I am not talking about domestic violence. I am not talking about what happened 100 years ago or last week in France.
What I am saying is that if the baseline of social behavior now means that a man will not be involved the decision to have an abortion, then it is a privilege, not a right
You keep assuming that I have their beliefs.
I don't.
I'm saying that it is not about rights when only one person is allowed to decide.
Then if the man's desires don't count, does that mean they don't owe child support?
"Want" doesn't have anything to do with it.
Accepting responsibility does.
But not if they are denied the choice.
Then give me numbers instead of allegations.
At the same time, I'll point out that by excluding men from the decision, they never have to be responsible. Under the circumstances, the surprise is not that some men flake out. It's that others don't.
It's not just "men" who have this opinion. That's the point. Women don't all agree with you and it's foolish to pretend that they do.
My first sex rule is "Consenting adults only.". The first derivation of that is "Your desire does not control another's choice."
I absolutely agree that children need happy families. I also think they need male and female role models, but that is another discussion.
I think the power and the responsibility doesn't just lie with men.
I do know that for a while, CA had a law that if the mother published the name of a man she claimed was the father a certain number of times, that man was obligated to pay support even if genetic testing showed there was no relationship. I know a few guys who got caught in that trap.
I am not saying most women are irresponsible.
I am saying that having sex without considering the consequences with your partner is irresponsible.
I'm saying that our "system" of excluding men from the decision about abortion encourages men to be irresponsible and guilt free.
Do I think that birth control is a good thing? Yes.
Do I think that abortion is a right? No, not if it doesn't include the man.
Do I think that late term abortion is a good thing? Definitely not in the third trimester and I would question any that happen in the second.
Do I think that men can be unfeeling jerks more concerned with their own pleasure than their partner's feelings? Yes, especially if they are not held responsible for their actions. If the man isn't allowed to talk about abortion with his partner, why should he care? That is the society we live in. He's encouraged to think it's the woman's fault if she gets pregnant.
The hook-up culture certainly hasn't helped. If the guy doesn't have to work at seduction, why should he pay attention to her feelings?
I still don't think that rape should be part of the discussion about abortion because most abortions happen without rape. The only reason I can see for treating rape as the norm for abortions is to silence criticism about abortion.
If you want to shut people out of the conversation for whatever reason, that is your choice. Just don't expect them to accept your "rights."
If you want to blame all of this on men, that's your choice too. But most of them will resent you for it because they didn't do what you are accusing them of.
So that's where we are. Because I said abortion wasn't a right, you've said I am anti-woman and a bad Pagan and a bad person. But I've not prevented abortions. I've not voted against abortion. I'm not arguing against abortion. All I've said is that abortion is not a right. I haven't tried to turn back the clock.
If you really want to fight what's happening in these states, you're going to have to find a justification other than the "right to an abortion." I'm being honest with you. I'm not attacking you and I am certainly not attacking women as a group. I am telling truth. It's what I do.❞❞
Comments
Women's rights
❝❝The first and most important "women's right" is the right to vote. Then comes the right to earn, to keep what is earned, and to hold property. Free speech and the rest listed in the Bill of Rights come next. Reproductive "rights" don't even make the top ten. Especially since the last time I checked, sex is supposed to be a consensual activity.❞❞— NeoWayland, comments from The “no news is good news” open thread
NeoNote — What has Trump done that is so bad?
❝❝I'm not a Trump fan. I don't trust him and I don't like him.NeoNotes are the selected comments that I made on other boards, in email, or in response to articles where I could not respond directly.
That being said, when some of us said we didn't like Obama, we were told to sit down and shut up. Obama won, and it was his ball game.
That alone should raise people's hackles.
Right after Trump was elected, there was the woman's march thing. I asked a very progressive group just what was it that Trump had said or done that presented such a threat to women in particular. The only real answer I got was something about woman's reproductive rights. That's when I pointed out that Trump supported Planned Parenthood.
One year later, the same group was talking about supporting the next woman's march. I asked what Trump had done in the previous year that was a particular threat to women. I got something vague about the judges he appointed. I asked how that was different than a liberal President appointing liberal judges.
The complaints about Trump not being legitimately elected are mostly recycled from Bush the Younger. The complaints about Trump being a danger to world peace and being totally incompetent are being recycled from Goldwater and Reagan. I know, I went back and checked. Progressive will complain about Trump tweeting from the toilet, but they can't tell you what he has done that they find repulsive. Except judicial appointments, of course.
We've reached the point where we're told that Trump is E-V-I-L, but they can't say why. And meanwhile with overwhelming bad news coverage, he still has an approval rating of more than 50%.
I don't like him. I don't trust him. I think he is going to make some very bad decisions that will be very bad for the country. But meanwhile, he's screwing up the established government traditions and driving the technocrats crazy. He's disrupting things that need to be disrupted. He's changing government. I have to give the man credit for that.❞❞
Real & impossible rights
Since the Women's March in January I've been talking to and emailing people. I've been trying to find out exactly what "women's rights" are and which ones have been threatened by Donald Trump.
In the United States, women have more rights than any where else in the World. Period. This cannot be disputed. The Fourteenth and Nineteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution pretty much took care of that. It's not perfect by any means, and yes, some males can be total a*holes about it. But (and this is a darn important but), American women enjoy rights that are impossible for other women in much of the World.
To start with, American women are secure in their persons and that is protected by law. They are not usually forced into radical surgical modification such as female genital mutilation. They can not be forcibly married. They can't legally be forced into sex. They can't be required to provide body parts, organs, or blood on demand.
American women can AND usually do own property. They can exchange their labor for cash. They can have bank accounts (even if there were problems with that until well into the 1970s). Their property is protected by law just as any man's property is.
Third and most importantly, American women have the right to vote. As citizens, they have every right to try changing government within the system if they don't like it. And if they and enough of their fellow citizens agree, they have the right to abolish the government and start again.
There are other rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, the right to bear arms, and so on. Somehow these other rights are never under discussion, even though they do not exist for women elsewhere on the planet.
These are the very same rights that every American citizen possesses.
Then there are four sets of rights that some women want that are not guaranteed by the Constitution and law.
The first set concerns equal pay. This can be confusing. Some jobs are inherently more dangerous and pay more. Some jobs require much more than the normal time and a near obsession with the job itself, these often pay more. Jobs are like anything else, there are tradeoffs.
The second set concerns the sexualization of women. Some describe it as the hyper-sexualization of women.
Yeah.
Well, I have news for you. Humans are sexual creatures. Men are going to pay attention to women. Yes, even homosexual men. It's hardwired into the biology. The fact that the overwhelming majority of men do not have sex all the time with every female in sight at every opportunity is a credit to morals and Western Civilization. You're going to get speculative looks and appreciative looks. Sometimes you may get comments.
And you know what? Not all ladies are offended by that. Please don't act as if women are a monolithic block who all speak and act as one.
Sometimes women dress to get attention. Men are going to respond.
But since America is not a rape culture, women are still secure in their person. Or they should be anyway.
There's a difference between admiration and forced sex.
The third set concerns privileges for women because of past wrongs done against the gender by men. These aren't rights because everyone (men and women) share rights. These are special privileges that apply only to women because they are women.
That's not going to work.
In my case, I'm not going to take responsibility for something I didn't do. If the guy three streets over did it, I'm not responsible. If it happened in my grandfather's time, I'm not responsible. If my brother did it, I'm probably not responsible, but we'll talk it over and see.
Guilting someone into giving you privilege means the privilege will only last as long as the guilt.
That brings us to the fourth set. Somehow this set gets more attention than the rest, it concerns reproductive rights. As nearly as I can tell, this is reduced-cost and/or free contraception and abortion.
Going back to the first right I discussed in this post, American women are secure in their persons.
This means that sex is a voluntary activity. I'm going to say that again.
Sex is a voluntary activity.
I'm not responsible for a woman's sexual behavior any more than I am responsible for the color of her shoes. It's her choice and her responsibility. It's not her neighbor's responsibility. It's not society's responsibility.
Unless it's with me, who you have sex with, how you have sex, and how many times you have sex is frankly none of my business. Likewise, unless it is sex with me, I'm not responsible for the consequences.
So that is four sets of impossible "rights" that some women call "women's rights." These rights can't be granted. And the only set that President Trump threatens is the last set, the "reproductive rights."
I can't support these "women's rights."
I can support American rights as I discussed in the first part of this post.
Those are actually rights and worth defending.
In the United States, women have more rights than any where else in the World. Period. This cannot be disputed. The Fourteenth and Nineteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution pretty much took care of that. It's not perfect by any means, and yes, some males can be total a*holes about it. But (and this is a darn important but), American women enjoy rights that are impossible for other women in much of the World.
To start with, American women are secure in their persons and that is protected by law. They are not usually forced into radical surgical modification such as female genital mutilation. They can not be forcibly married. They can't legally be forced into sex. They can't be required to provide body parts, organs, or blood on demand.
American women can AND usually do own property. They can exchange their labor for cash. They can have bank accounts (even if there were problems with that until well into the 1970s). Their property is protected by law just as any man's property is.
Third and most importantly, American women have the right to vote. As citizens, they have every right to try changing government within the system if they don't like it. And if they and enough of their fellow citizens agree, they have the right to abolish the government and start again.
There are other rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, the right to bear arms, and so on. Somehow these other rights are never under discussion, even though they do not exist for women elsewhere on the planet.
These are the very same rights that every American citizen possesses.
Then there are four sets of rights that some women want that are not guaranteed by the Constitution and law.
The first set concerns equal pay. This can be confusing. Some jobs are inherently more dangerous and pay more. Some jobs require much more than the normal time and a near obsession with the job itself, these often pay more. Jobs are like anything else, there are tradeoffs.
❝❝The 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure, or hours worked per week. When all these relevant factors are taken into consideration, the wage gap narrows to about five cents. And no one knows if the five cents is a result of discrimination or some other subtle, hard-to-measure difference between male and female workers.❞❞
— Christina Hoff Sommers, No, Women Don’t Make Less Money Than Men
The second set concerns the sexualization of women. Some describe it as the hyper-sexualization of women.
Yeah.
Well, I have news for you. Humans are sexual creatures. Men are going to pay attention to women. Yes, even homosexual men. It's hardwired into the biology. The fact that the overwhelming majority of men do not have sex all the time with every female in sight at every opportunity is a credit to morals and Western Civilization. You're going to get speculative looks and appreciative looks. Sometimes you may get comments.
And you know what? Not all ladies are offended by that. Please don't act as if women are a monolithic block who all speak and act as one.
Sometimes women dress to get attention. Men are going to respond.
But since America is not a rape culture, women are still secure in their person. Or they should be anyway.
There's a difference between admiration and forced sex.
The third set concerns privileges for women because of past wrongs done against the gender by men. These aren't rights because everyone (men and women) share rights. These are special privileges that apply only to women because they are women.
That's not going to work.
In my case, I'm not going to take responsibility for something I didn't do. If the guy three streets over did it, I'm not responsible. If it happened in my grandfather's time, I'm not responsible. If my brother did it, I'm probably not responsible, but we'll talk it over and see.
Guilting someone into giving you privilege means the privilege will only last as long as the guilt.
That brings us to the fourth set. Somehow this set gets more attention than the rest, it concerns reproductive rights. As nearly as I can tell, this is reduced-cost and/or free contraception and abortion.
Going back to the first right I discussed in this post, American women are secure in their persons.
This means that sex is a voluntary activity. I'm going to say that again.
Sex is a voluntary activity.
I'm not responsible for a woman's sexual behavior any more than I am responsible for the color of her shoes. It's her choice and her responsibility. It's not her neighbor's responsibility. It's not society's responsibility.
Unless it's with me, who you have sex with, how you have sex, and how many times you have sex is frankly none of my business. Likewise, unless it is sex with me, I'm not responsible for the consequences.
So that is four sets of impossible "rights" that some women call "women's rights." These rights can't be granted. And the only set that President Trump threatens is the last set, the "reproductive rights."
I can't support these "women's rights."
I can support American rights as I discussed in the first part of this post.
Those are actually rights and worth defending.